Episode 12
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Episode 12 Outline0:00 - 15:22
- Intro (Excluding Vapor's Intro)
- Sunny's thoughts on Meadowlands
- Spectator's significantly increased over previous events in 2007
- Biggest surprises at the event
- Team Classic ran out of gas
- Sundance's interpretation of Ogre 2 trash talking
- Home court advantage travels for FB
- Pro team t-shirts/jerseys by MLG
- ESPN Saturday Night and VOD Broadcast
15:22 - 24:32
- Gametype Setting Changes?
- BR Spread revisted with Sundance
- Thoughts on Luke from Bungie
- Saved Films over Fileshare from the events?
- Rumor about San Diego and PC LAN Tournament (CHEESEBURGERS)
24:32 - 45:08
- Round-table discussion regarding Stryfe's thoughts on console and PC gaming
- Brief description of the video interviews
- Sunny's initial thoughts and how MLG determines the assigning of a pro contract
- The faults of PC gaming and why it's dying
- Esh's facts around console vs. pc gaming
- Esh's prediction on future xbox controllers
- Why Vapor feels console gaming takes less skill than PC
- Sunny's final thoughts
45:08 - 1:30:00
- Vapor and Esh continue the discussion on Stryfe's comments
- Comparing elements of PC to console gaming
- Why Pro-Gamer's should care about fans and spectator friendliness
- UT3 Briefly discussed
1:30:00 - END
- Gears of War 2 footage hitting this Friday
- Joe Graf thinks Matchmaking was in Gears of War 1
- Is the DanBauer history repeating itself?
- Esh's theory on GoW2 Multiplayer system
- Limited edition predictions
- What will Cliffy show us on Friday?
- Close out
29 Comments:
you are god damn fascinating, seriously you know what you are talking about
there isnt any magnatizm in h3 for the BR, there isnt much auto aim. even with the auto aim its still harder to stay on your target with the auto aim using your thumbs than it is to stay on your target with no auto aim with a mouse, i play both console and pc. obviously i like console better. also just to point out,i can rocket/bruteshot jump on halo!!!!
gandhi hop is an arial movement that takes skill. ledge jumping/crouch jumping takes skill, maybe you dont have the skill or want to learn those moves.
when you were talking about the 2nd and 3rd ranked ps3 ut3 players and how boring it is. how come stryfe isnt so highly ranked if they suck so bad? maybe its because they have controllers in thier hands and not keys and a mouse. stryfe may not have looked so good without his mouse/keys. therefore proving that its not pc vs. console is mouse/keys vs. conroller. it sounds like you are just a pc gamer at heart and dont see the whole picture.
if a ut3 player is a pro at ut3 360. then he is good at that game, and he would probalby be good at ut3 on the pc.
i agree with everthing you said about the mouse and keyboard vs the controller. this dude stryfe you are talking about sounds like a jackass because he comparing two completly different game types, when he talking about pc and console. gamming is so diverse you can not even put the two in the same category. its as simple as this stryfe may be a great unreal pc player because that is what he is use to playing, but he would get owned in HALO by any one on final boss or anytop halo pro because that is what they are use to. so for him to say it takes so much less skill is just stupid because these players like Walshy are excelling at the game when other players just are clearly average. so for him to suggest he is more talented of a gammer than people who play halo is just dumb. that would belike saying Michael Jordan is the greatest athelete of all time, but in reality you can not determine it because he only played one sport basketball. and this dude stryfe may be one the best unreal pc players, but he can not just state he a better gamer than anyone who plays halo, because he exceled in one game.
Side note my grammar is bad with out spell checker, also the number of people playing halo is so much greater than the number of people who played unreal pc, I Believe. so to be at the top of the halo world is much greater accomplishment than being the best at a pc game that less people played on a regular basis.
Johnharb1232345@yahoo.com
What are your guys XBL gamer tags?
Let me start off by saying I've enjoyed your last two shows and feel fortunate that MLG linked linked me to such an entertaining and insightful show. I agree with most of what you say and will continue to listen in the future. I was a little confused however on your comments stating that shooting was the only skillful part of Halo 3. That seems extremely ignorant to me. There are many tactics people use while shooting that are very skillful, it's not all just aiming. Peeking, Gandhi hops and ceiling bouncing are just a few. Then there's ghost edge junmping and ledge bouncing, grenade placement, jump assassinations... the list could go on and on. The most skillful element of halo I feel however is decision making. It may not be dexterity based, but when you watch the top players play, it's not always that they have the best shot but they make wiser decisions.
ok, heres the deal. the mouse and keyboard isnt necessarily easier or harder to use, it simply offers more potential for greater control. it doesnt matter how much harder or easier it is to do the same thing in a PC game vs console game. what matters is what you can do on a PC that you cant on a console, which would be quick sporadic movements with the mouse and different levels of speed. on a console you get a nearly constant level of speed no matter how quickly you move the thumbstick. you will go faster if you push it all the way to the side, but it doesnt allow you to do a 180 on a dime like you guys touched on. this simply means that you can pull off stuff in a PC game that you cant on a console, there is a greater potential for more control.
what i would compare this to is the BxR or RRX in halo 2 vs the lack thereof in halo 3. in halo 2 you could pull off those glitches that were tough to do and it was a great display of technical skill. in halo 3 you cant. does that mean walshy cant do a double shot since its not in halo 3? no, he simply doesnt have the opportunity in that game, likewise, he doesnt have the opportunity to do a quick 180 and then headshot someone as quickly as fatal1ty in painkiller, and thats because fatal1ty's input device allows him the opportunity to display his ability to perform a dazzling technical display.
both take massive ammounts of skill, i think that simply looking at aim alone is a narrow minded way to sum up a debate between two whole platforms. there are so many other outlets of skill to be considered.
Love, Love, Love you guys' commentary on MLG and competitive gaming in general. The background of having experience in both PC and Console gaming is great and sets you apart from the tools that used to be on Ampd or still are on GotFrag. Keep it up fellas, looking forward to the next one.
The argument about the difference between controller and keyboard, I liked the argument that mouse and keyboard is both easier and more difficult than controller. At different skill levels the two input options perform vastly different. The "noobs" are always going to be better with a controller because they need the help that the games give and they can't cope with the amount of skill it takes to aim precisely with a m/k. But at the highest competitive levels I think the M/K is easier to use, those persons have the ability to exploit the potential of M/K and make it work for them much better than a controller ever could. My opinion is that with a controller there will always be a skill cap, and that with M/K there is unlimited potential.
Esh seems to know what he is talking about for the most part, and makes logical points. Esh seems to be familiar and have a good understanding of competitive and pro gaming in general. I agree with most of your views, and you are interesting to listen to.
Dan/Vapor on the other hand seems to be sort of clueless. A lot of his points are not logical, and it seems that he doesn't have a good understanding of competitive gaming and especially pro gaming. I can't believe he made the comment that spectators don't matter, and as a person playing for money you shouldn't worry about that, just about how competitive the game is. I mean that is probably the dumbest thing I heard in the podcast, and really makes me question his understanding of competitive gaming. I would hope he never decides to start up his own competitive league, for his own financial sake.
Anyway fairly good show, the interviews are probably the best part. Have you thought of taking call-ins and streaming the show live? I assume you use skype or something similar that would make it easy to do. If that isn't possible then maybe having planned call-ins with other community members, that aren't just your friends, for the last section of the show might be interesting.
What an AMAZING arguement. BTW i would gladly try out a custom with 125% movement and whatever shield regen rate, i think it would be sick to try it out
So isn't the real issue just that the game developers are not including mouse and keyboard support for the console versions of their games? Both the PS3 and 360 have USB connections. Therefore, they are both completely capable of supporting mouse and keyboard.
I have seen a youtube video of someone that shows you how to play UT3 on the PS3 with a mouse and keyboard. But, this is only possible becuase EPIC put that functionality into the game. He shows how to hook it up and also shows that on M&K there is no autoaim/magnetism. (Perhaps this addition played a role in the success of the PS3 version of UT3...)
So, it is my opinion that the capablity to mesh M&K guys with Controller guys is there. It's just up to the developer to include it in the game. I personally would LOVE to see some M&K use in the MLG atmosphere. I think that even Halo 3 could benefit immensely by the added diversity. I would like to see how many people would make the switch back to the tried and true M&K. For foOks sake, even Walsy admitted that mouse and keyboard would win hands down any day against a controller. Nuff Said!
DÈMÓNIÇ
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So what really is the difference between console gaming and PC gaming. Consoles are just PC's stuffed into an extremely small box with insufficient cooling (even though nowadays we have great water cooling systems!!! C'mon Microsoft fix that shit already!)
So, what's the difference? XBL is the greatest tool for competitive gaming ever dreamt up but the console controller alienates a lot of great gamers. For instance, I mainly play PC FPS's. I enjoy playing Halo PC which I know is not the greatest game ever made. However, I enjoy beating the shit out of all the punks that use the aimbot cheats and sightjacker, and the 3rd person cheat and the flycam cheat, etc... Many people are disgusted with that game because of the lead shooting. The latency issue that gearbox never found a way to fix. However, I find that it increases the skill bar. I enjoy playing Halo PC online because you have to understand your ping and how that affects your lead aiming. Now, I love the Halo series. Recently I got my Red Ring of Death 360 back from Microsoft and decided to try some more Halo 3. I immediately was aggrivated that I was missing shots with the controller that I would have never missed on M&K.
This just leads me to believe that the M&K vs. controller issue is a preference thing plain and simple. Mouse and Keyboard style Gamers should have more support from the developers to include M&K into their games.
I mean seriously, who in the world of gaming would not want to see some of the PC gamers that we have come to know right there in the mix with some MLG teams. Imagine this for a sweet second:
Team Final Boss:
Walshy
Ogre1
Ogre2
Strongside
versus,
Team STR8 Carbonal1ty:
Fatal1ty
TSquared
Karma
Shockwave
or maybe a dream team like this:
Team Fatal Boss:
Walshy
Ogre1
Ogre2
Strongside
Fatal1ty
Toxic
they could switch hit like in baseball. The players that are stronger at certain gametypes could come in during those games. Obviously, this would also require Bungie to support Mouse and Keyboard. But let's be real... that would be a pretty simple fuckin patch I would assume. Bungie has some brilliant people on their side. I have confidence that they could pull it off.
DÈMÓNIÇ
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using a controller even with auto aim is harder than a computer with none because you are using a mouse. and then there is fair comparison between the same game on pc and console where it is obviously harder to use a controller. and your points about using rockets on the wall etc on a pc and not being able to do it with a controller is nothing but a lack of skill. in halo 2 certain things would not be possible holding the controller in a normal way, but some people developed a skill of holding the controller in a "claw" way and playing like that, which takes alot of skill.
it takes more skill to aim on a console PERIOD. i was a top 25 player in rainbow six on pc and its much easier than playing on a console with a controller. its just fact that consoles are harder and take more skill to play at a high level than it does on pc. i used to be the "hardcore pc gamer" like stryfe and you people, but the truth is when i switched to consoles eventually, because the lack of pc players, it was truthfully harder and took more time to get to a top competitive level than it did on pc because of the physical skill someone needs. and your comment about flick shots and turning around really fast; you can do that in pretty much any console game because you can change your sensitivity
You guys are amazing. Everything you've said, down to the PC vs. console argument, is absolutely true. I may not play PC games much, but I do see how much skill goes into playing them.
There are button glitches on halo 3. They only work on lan, but you can Bxr. That is not the combination anymore, but it's the mave that is happening. There is also a way to fire a sniper shot out of a BR this is a button glitch that lets you shoot with the br then right after that shot without switching wepons shoot with the br. They cannot be done online, but they are there, and can happen on lan.
I'm the person abouve. When I was talking about shooting a with the br then shooting again I meant the sniper bullet comes out of the BR then you can shoot regular shots out of the BR.
Guys, check this out!!! Mouse and Keyboard on the Xbox 360!!! This gives me a hard on! Seriously!
Check out the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9fzM6FlZRM
DÈMÓNIÇ
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!!!!!!!!!!!!USE A MOUSE AND KEYBOARD ON THE XBOX 360!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Here is the website for the XFPS 3.0: http://www.xcm.cc/index.htm (there is a new XFPS Sniper Plus now as well) Their first couple versions had some lag issues with the mouse. But version 3 solved this problem by introducing the X and Y axis sensitivity settings. Now, it's supposed to be as smooth as a typical PC game. I have ordered mine through Amazon and so I will be able to judge this for myself in the coming weeks.
I hope it works out beautifully because I would absolutely love to play some Halo 3 with M&K.
Here is another video showing the 3.0 version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNXmp6xkCj0&feature=related
DÈMÓNIÇ
(Would you guys consider trying this product out and reporting about it on your next podcast? This could be a great step towards getting Mouse and Keyboard accepted for use in the MLG! I would love to see Fatal1ty come into the MLG!)
Here is the link showing you the keyboard and mouse support on Unreal Tournament 3 (PS3).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmjCxwMsE7I
There are also reports that there will be official keyboard and mouse support on UT3 Xbox 360 version as well. I can't wait. I would love to see MLG pick that game up on their circuit.
DÈMÓNIÇ
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Hello guys I really enjoyed your show. I was jut wondering if you all could comment on Rainbow six vegas 2 as a competitive title
chico313
where in tha fuck is episode 13. and for all you mother fuckas hatin on these guy opinion fuck you
So, the XFPS just arrived in the mail today. I tried it out on Halo 3 matchmaking and I have gotten decent results. My first slayer match I was 11 kills/ 1 death. Every game that I have played that was even teams has had great results. As far as the accuracy goes, I would say that it is not as smooth as a typical PC game mouse movement. However, my Halo 3 sniping has drastically improved. I have renewed my interest in Halo 3 but I have also renewed my hatred for that fuckin Assault Rifle! I hate the AR because it's a no-skill weapon. People AR you and then get close for the melee. Over and fuckin over and fuckin over again. It's sooooooooo boring and predictable.
So, at a longer range, I have improved BR skills and Sniping skills with the use of the XFPS 3.0 Sniper Plus. But, like I said, it's not as smooth as a typical PC game mouse movement. I guess it will just take some getting used to the attachment.
Of course, the real question is, is it really worth $100? Ummmm no. Unless you seriously have an obsession with playing Halo 3 and hate the 360 controller (like me).
...and OMFG I love sniping people out of the mancannon at Valhalla! ahhh that's fuckin rewarding feeling! God damn it would be nice if this game would have come out on Windows live...
Damn Bungie for their console driven sales.
DÈMÓNIÇ
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I'd like to add a few comments to my previous post. So, I stayed up much of last night playing Halo 3 with the XFPS (it was a double xp Team Snipers weekend afterall). As I said earlier I have a new found hatred for the AR in the game. Can you believe that even on some Team Slayer matches that were BR starts that people would still switch to the AR and use that run and gun then melee combo? Rediculous! It just proved something to me. What you guys and others have been saying about Halo 3 being dumbed down to appeal to a larger audience is right on the money. Halo 3 matchmaking does not even promote a fraction of the competitiveness of earlier Halo titles. Just the simple fact that these dumb-ass kids would rather use the AR in a Team BR's match proves this. The AR takes NO SKILL. You just run n gun head on and melee, if you have the better latency, you typically get the kill. What a shame.
I bring this up becuase although the XFPS allowed me to actually display some shooting skill as apposed to using the crap-ass 360 controller in the end most matches still came down to who run n gun'd and melee'd the most. And being that Halo 3 is a team fueled game, it also came down to the skill of your team members (and whether or not they actually stayed in the game... I can't remember how many matches I played where 1 or two of my "team" members left and therefore left us outnumbered).
That is why the MLG works though. Halo should be played with friends. You should have a party setup with four people and get into matchmaking and fuck up the other team of random dipshits. I fuckin hate random team members.
...too bad all of my friends are non-console havin' dousche-bags! lolz.
DÈMÓNIÇ
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Here is an argument for Server Lists rather than matchmaking:
In matchmaking you get very few filtering options. You basically choose which playlist you hate the least and go through the matchmaking process. This is what pisses me off about matchmaking. 1st of all, you don't get to choose which map you want to play. You don't get to choose which type of objective gametype you want to play and once you settle on a playlist you have to wait for a couple minutes to get paired up with enough people to play the damn game. Typically, the match is only about 5 minutes long and it takes around that same amount of time to get through the matchmaking process. It's bullshit!
When I play a Server List multiplayer type game such as Halo PC, I get to choose among the map I want, the gametype I want, how many players are currently in the game, who they are, what the current score is, what the ping is, etc... In matchmaking you don't get shit!
Also, with a game like Halo PC I can get into a sniper no-shields match in bloodgulch with a 10-cap CTF that will allow me to play for several hours straight. I'm lucky to get 10 minutes straight with Halo 2 or Halo 3!
Of course, this is just me venting. Obviously, a game like Halo 3 has waaaaaay too many players to display a server list. But, dedicated servers would be kinda sweet. I can imagine how fun a sniper no-shields 10-cap CTF game on Valhalla or Avalanche would be...
Hey Esh and Vapor,
Could you guys comment on the newly released gameplay footage of Gears of War 2 that was given exclusive to gametrailers.tv?
I noticed the "Yes" on CB's shirt... I was wondering the whole time "are you a total dousche?" Apparently, the answer is a resounding "Yes".
In my opinion, the footage looks EXACTLY like Gears of War 1. But, who gives a shit about that god damned chainsaw? It's not a viable offensive tool 95% of the time. I used it like once in Gears of War 1 just to see what it was like. What was it like? Useless. At that close of a range, you would be better off with that stank-ass noob tube (Shotgun).
So, why are they putting so much emphasis in the two video's now on the damn chainsaw? In one word: "Marketing" It's all about the Benny J's. Everytime they flash a chainsaw: bling bling. But besides the new chainsaw action, I noticed the prisoner bullet shield. Can anyone say "Splinter Cell?"
You know what I think...? Playing Gears of War 2 is going to require drinking Beers of More.
I don't know... What do you guys think about the footage???
Could you guys also comment on the news of IDsoftware developing Doom 4 and the speculated development of a Quake 5. Also, what do you guys think of Quake Live. I believe it's going to be an html based game. There is a beta out now.
WHERE THE FUCK IS EPISODE 13? pleez...
Thank you all for all the feedback provided on this Episode. We're truly grateful to have such dedicated fans to the show. Please continue to provide feedback and let us know what you think. Thanks again all!
- Eshelon
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